The EV Joke

Quote from Danneskjold

I have decided not to take $50 out of your wallet.

Are you now $50 richer?

Fair point. However, by artificially reducing their costs, it allows for artificially lower pump prices. So my original question stands. How much would fuel cost if it were not subsidized?

Now let’s get back to the subsidies for EV’s. Those too are tax subsidies. On the federal level it’s a $7500 tax credit to the purchaser. The incentives for the manufacturers and dealers are tax breaks. Why are tax credits for one industry good but for another bad?

Quote from ASTAC

Fair point. However, by artificially reducing their costs, it allows for artificially lower pump prices. So my original question stands. How much would fuel cost if it were not subsidized?

Now let’s get back to the subsidies for EV’s. Those too are tax subsidies. On the federal level it’s a $7500 tax credit to the purchaser. The incentives for the manufacturers and dealers are tax breaks. Why are tax credits for one industry good but for another bad?

Again, NOT taking something from you is NOT the same as first taking it from someone else, and then giving it to you.

If you can't understand this basic point, there's no point in arguing with you.

Past that, the REAL problem is the release of the strategic reserve oil. Not because it's lowering prices, but because in short order, it'll RAISE prices over actual supply and demand in order to refill it. I predict that will happen sometime around or just before summer.

Don’t get the wrong idea about me. Like I said before I have no plans to get an EV and I do not believe in their current form they are a truly viable alternative to ICE vehicles except within a very narrow margin of circumstances. To assume they will never be is ridiculous. To cry about perceived costs to taxpayers while ignoring the same treatment to a competing industry is just as ridiculous. ICE, oil, and gas pumps aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.

Quote from Danneskjold

Again, NOT taking something from you is NOT the same as first taking it from someone else, and then giving it to you.

If you can't understand this basic point, there's no point in arguing with you.

I agree. This argument started when Beej asked how much would EVs cost if they weren’t subsidized by taxpayer dollars. I asked the same question about fuel. As it it went on turns out taxpayer dollars aren’t subsidizing either. It’s tax breaks for the manufacturer and the consumer for EV’s, and tax breaks for exploration and production of petroleum products.

So if tax breaks end in both industries, consumer cost would go up. We all know the producers aren’t going to eat that cost.

Building EVs takes significantly more carbon inputs than ICE cars and only make back that "debt" if you drive a lot of miles. The vast majority of EV owners don't, they're the work-from-home class. Brits figured that out studying busses 10 years ago. People are figuring it out again with recent studies.

If "running out of oil" is your concern, EVs are the worst solution you could think of to solving that.

I thought the hydrogen concept had promise. Our government has all but killed it in favor of Chinese batteries

Quote from ASTAC

I agree. This argument started when Beej asked how much would EVs cost if they weren’t subsidized by taxpayer dollars. I asked the same question about fuel. As it it went on turns out taxpayer dollars aren’t subsidizing either. It’s tax breaks for the manufacturer and the consumer for EV’s, and tax breaks for exploration and production of petroleum products.

So if tax breaks end in both industries, consumer cost would go up. We all know the producers aren’t going to eat that cost.

There's 2 issues with the cost of EV's. First is the $7500 direct consumer subsidy. But the big one is that every EV manufacturer except Tesla is taking a 40-60% loss PER car. Even China, who's getting these rare earth metals direct, is sitting on almost a million unsold, and undesired electric cars.

The manufacturers are starting to wise up. Even the most die hard DEI disciples aren't willing to lose billions.

That $7500 IS a direct subsidy from the taxpayer to the manufacturers. If there was no subsidy, electric cars would be about $7500 cheaper.

Companies like Exxon DO get tax breaks, etc, like most any corporation gets--the government awards them in order to modify their behavior in some way, typically. (OR.... Exxon bribes someone on the Ways and Means Committee)

I never found out how much money we gave Lazs to put solar on his house

Quote from Danneskjold

But the big one is that every EV manufacturer except Tesla is taking a 40-60% loss PER car.

That’s because Tesla is actually in the carbon credits business.

Quote from Beej

I thought the hydrogen concept had promise. Our government has all but killed it in favor of Chinese batteries

Hydrogen is inevitable. It's the best battery, but it's not happening anytime soon.

and every oil subsidy benefits EVs, they're petroleum products. Subsidies on top of subsidies on top of subsidies on top of subsidies.

I reckon the marketing of electric cars is stupid. Why would you intentionally market something falsely, good for the environment is as bullshit as it gets. If they had have sold them to the public as a performance vehicle and made them look that way, I think they'd be much more popular.

because China bribed them

(I know you already have a preconceived notion and I might as well be talking to the wall)

My boss who is on his second Tesla (wife wrecked the first) and drives it 160 miles every day and charges it OUTSIDE in Michigan IN THE WINTER says these idiots who are bricking their cars are not prepping their battery before connecting to a super charger. The battery does not like the super charger when it's cold (trickle charge is OK though). Tesla has a "precharge" mode that the driver must put the vehicle into approx 20 minutes before connecting to a super charger. "Precharge mode" (I'm not positive that's what they call it but that's what it is) uses some of the batteries energy to warm up the battery in prep of charging. Not doing so is like using you garden hose to add water to an overheating ICE vehicle. I'm sure there will be a software update that will prevent super charging when the battery is too cold but people will bitch about that too.

(this is the part where you display mass-indignation at the proposition that a legacy media bought and paid for by corps with a hardon for Elon Musk would EVER stretch the truth or outright lie in order to propagate a desired narrative)

That's the best scenario for owning an EV--trickle charge it at the house over-night. (Helps that your neighbor's is a Tesla, they seem to perform tons better than the rest)

Super charge is ok in the cold as long as you prep the battery. Prepping the battery can be done while driving, although it does reduce range since it uses the battery to warm itself up. Boss says 20 minutes in "precharge mode" (or whatever they call it) is plenty.

How many batteries are there per EV? How does the owner dispose of them when they're dead? Melt them down in a furnace? Bury them in a land-fill? Dump them at sea? How many dead batteries will 100 million EVs produce over the lifetime of a fleet of that size? How many acres of solar panels will be needed to recharge that fleet?

All this to "Save the Planet"? Bullshit....

Most people don't give a shit about that. I like the idea of a Tesla for skipping the lines at the gas station, INCREDIBLE performance and value (about the cost of the average new shitbox) as a daily driver. It's not the vehicle to take cross country though. Boss says it costs about $100 a month to keep it charged up driving an average 1000 miles a week (about 40 cents a mile).

Quote from Shuckins

How many batteries are there per EV? How does the owner dispose of them when they're dead? Melt them down in a furnace? Bury them in a land-fill? Dump them at sea? How many dead batteries will 100 million EVs produce over the lifetime of a fleet of that size? How many acres of solar panels will be needed to recharge that fleet?

All this to "Save the Planet"? Bullshit....

EV batteries can be and are recycled.

Tesla never really marketed their cars as green. Their website only states trying to move towards sustainable energy. Totally different. The idea of EV’s being green is a leftist trope, not a manufacturers promise.