• The fear of immigrants, in general, has been exaggerated out of proportion (based on envisioning terrorists or south of the border criminal gangs managing to overtake the land or destroy stuff). as such.


    Yes, there are states that allow undocumented immigrants to participate in local elections.

    What is the crime rate of illegal aliens compared to legal aliens? And how much does illegal alien crime and its prosecution and incarceration cost.


    Now you just admitted that illegal aliens have voted in local elections, is it possible that some have voted in national elections?If you say no, you are wrong because California has discounted votes from individuals that "didn't have legal residential status." If you say yes, you have just invalidated your own position.

    We're talking about a citizen's right to vote. Yes, there are indeed some citizens that live so impoverished that they can't even make it to the DMV to get a license or ID. And the charge for 'papers' (as some refer to vaccine documentation in another argument) is essentially equivalent to a 'poll tax' (which is contrary to the 24th amendment of the U.S. Constitution).

    That is a bad argument to make. First of all, STOP BEING DISINGENUOUS! You're using the term, "some citizens" when every single civil rights worker and national level Democratic politician uses the terms Black, African-Americans or the general term minorities. They continuously try to scare black people into thinking that the Republicans want to oppress them. They want African-Americans to think of themselves as victims, that aren't capable of doing the simplest thing for themselves. growing number of minorities are starting to think that narrative is demeaning and racist. BAD ARGUMENT!


    Think about it! There are millions of immigrants (both legal and illegal) that have come to America with nothing.....not even able to speak English at all...that have been able to work, go to school, get driver's licenses and buy property such as homes and cars. Do you mean to tell me that immigrants can do all that but native borne citizens that can speak the language and know the system and procedures can't? You have a bad argument.


    But the biggest blow to your argument is the civil rights movement. Ever heard of that? You know, when millions of Americans spent their time and money to mobilize in a coherent movement to get Black people registered to vote. If voter I.d. is really that disenfranchising, where are all the black celebrities and athletes going door to door bring black people to get registered? Where are all the white guilt celebrities picking up black people in their Tesla's and Mercedes, bringing them to the local courthouse to get registered? THERE AREN"T ANY!

    There was a time in our not too distant history that all immigrants would have been considered 'illegal' (undocumented) by today's standards.

    If you do not have a legal residential status in a country, you are in fact in violation of the law. that means that you are doing something illegal. What do you not understand? You can call it anything you want. Undocumented? Sure, let's go with that. But it still means that you can't prove a legal residential status...and that makes you an illegal immigrant.

  • Yeah well,


    Wasting effort by giving those with no claim to reason or decency is stupid.


    Somewhere ('60's?) we decided that any hole capable of ejaculating regurgitated hyperbole was worthy of a seat at the rhetorical table.


    They're not. They don't warrant explanations, elucidation, or inclusion. They deserve nothing save rancor and contempt. Certainly not the tolerant consideration of the just.


    Fuck 'em.

  • Just a few things you need a driver's license or state I.D. for. And yet asking for it to vote is somehow suppression???


    To drive

    To buy firearms

    To buy alcohol

    To buy cigarettes

    To buy marijuana (in states where legal)

    To buy some over the counter medications

    To pickup prescription drugs

    Applying for food stamps

    Applying for welfare

    Applying for Medicare

    Rent a house or apartment

    Have a bank account

    To buy camp fuel

    To buy a cell phone

    A real man loves his woman every day of the month

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  • The argument against voter ID is weak. But implementation has hazards as well. It should be the state's obligation to process this ID without charge. It should also be the state's obligation to keep voting from being unduly difficult. In a simpler time, if you were bed ridden you could contact the county and they would send someone out to take your vote. Times are more complicated.


    ANY thing used in the process of voting that gives an advantage to one side or the other is UN-American. Reforming the system to level the playing field is difficult because it requires the States to give up part of their power. States on both sides don't like to give up power.


    The truth is, the body of people that never vote is enough to sway any election. If you are in power and you piss these people off you are in trouble. MY electric bill suddenly almost doubled because of the Republicans siding with the energy industry instead of the people over the winter event last year. This increase is said to be a 30 year process.
    Not just my bill, every business, every person, even every Church is effected. It's like having inflation increased by 2 points in a single day. It would be ironic that the State would switch from Republican to Democratic on this issue alone but it is possible.


    Imagine the political landscape where NY, Calf., and Texas were all Democratic.

  • The honest no bullshit reality of it is that the entire system is so full of corruption it is unsavable. Dems, Repups, indys, there's not 2% of politicians at the national level that give one rat's ass about "their" constituent. Their sole purpose is to increase their wealth and retain their position. They mearly give the illusion that they are "for the people". And we're given the illusion that are votes count.

    A real man loves his woman every day of the month

  • The honest no bullshit reality of it is that the entire system is so full of corruption it is unsavable. Dems, Repups, indys, there's not 2% of politicians at the national level that give one rat's ass about "their" constituent. Their sole purpose is to increase their wealth and retain their position. They mearly give the illusion that they are "for the people". And we're given the illusion that are votes count.

    Very well said! There is a part of me that agrees 100%. And there is a part of me that

    is uneasy about the idea that it is "unsavable" because that means violent revolution is the only way to resolve the problem. It also leads to a place where you ask yourself "If this is true then why vote at all."


    I've thought about this a long time. I realized that being "sold out" in the old days didn't bother me so much because the politician got a decent price for me. There was a time when ear marks and programs and bridges to no where were the primary currency of your local representative. It was his job to go the DC and "bring home the bacon". I didn't like the system then but I didn't realize the unintended consequences of taking it down. A fat cat would go to a politician and say "I want this...." and the politician would say "I can get it for you, but you have to give me something I can take home and run on." That usually meant jobs or some kind of value the common person would consider worth while.


    Now....the only thing politicians have to run on is social issues. Social issues are important but they dominate us now, they divide us in a whole different way. They make us into enemies.


    I am favor of trading the corruption of the present for the corruption of the past.

  • I completely agree, you are correct that at least we got something out of it in the past. And unfortunately as "distasteful" as that was what we are left with is the politicians simply giving us lip service to get in and stay in their positions. Sure both sides say they tried and both sides blame it on the other but they don't really even care about that. Hell they don't even want that. If they did just look at the last few times either side help a "super majority". The side in power could have changed everything they wanted and ran on but nope, barely anything got accomplished.

    As for being a violent revolution to change it. Well almost inevitably that's what it comes down to. All throughout history it's pretty much the case. When a political (governing) system goes on so long it gets distorted so badly it's barely recognizable from what it started as. And those who hold the "power" will rarely give it up without a fight. Empire rise and fall, none last forever. That's just a fact. I've thought for a long time that we as a country are on the backside of that mountain. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am but it's not looking good these days.

    A real man loves his woman every day of the month

  • Wayne always uses his own words. Very intelligent, kind man.


    Wayne - now tell me how cute I am again!


    :blacksmile

    Mary has given me a special dispensation to flirt with you all I want. Cute just doesn't

    cover it! I saw your boob pics and voluminous would still be an under statement!

    I have always said that you have the soul of a woman. God doesn't make mistakes but He does make opportunities. I saw the opportunity to make you my friend and I grabbed it and I am glad I did.


    :love

  • Well thought out post that acknowledges the concerns on different sides. Thanks! :)

  • It's kinda reassuring to see the exchange between Wayne and Redwing. It's also a bit disconcerting but it does come off as an honest meeting of minds on this forum. This place could use more of that. Thanks, guys. 8)

    • Official Post

    So, these people that can't get a driver's license. Do they have social security numbers? Or they just have no identification at all?


    If identification to vote is too disenfranchising, then you don't need to vote.


    It's far more important to secure our elections than do just have a free-for-all that can be scammed easily.


    Many many Western nations have voter ID requirements and they don't seem to have problems.